Tulsa active shooter, The Texas School Massacre and the Buffalo supermarket mass shooting. Counter terrorism and Homeland Security expert Joe Sullivan joins the show to discuss the Uvalde elementary school killings that left 19 children & 2 teachers murdered. What went wrong, what tactics should have been used and what's ahead on guns, mental health programs & school safety. Join us.
welcome to philly primum dave shratwiser and unfortunately
another bad topic this week to cover mass
shootings in the united states
i
tulsa oklahoma
a
on wednesday night four
as
people
a great
dead the gun man killed himself
the
in texas the school massacre nineteen children and
two teachers died and a few weeks ago
in buffalo ten people died at a supermarket
i
on down by a crazed gunman so joining
me this week and you've seen him on
the show unfortunately
okay what you
this time around it's not a positive topic
at all is good friend of mine deputy
police former deputy police commissioner in philadelphia joe
sullivan town terrorism expert homely in security he's
kind of done it all in his thirty
pleasure years in the philadelphia police
we
department now retired thanks for coming
so
on the show again i
i
apologize it's not a pleasant topic to
plus
talk about but an important one so let's
start off with just a kind of your
reaction of what's going on here in the
last
no actual as
these three major
i
shootings
well i mean if you look at the
statistics in twenty twenty one saw a fifty
percent increase
ye
in active shooters
oh
if you take that back to two thousand
and seventeen the increase is one hundred per
cent
yeah
so far twenty twenty two we're out pacing
twenty twenty one so this is a problem
that's not going to go away
yeah
it's going to continue these things feed on
one another
oh
i have no doubt that
oh
the ension from
oh
the horrific incidents in buffalo
yeah
and you valley
yeah
mea well brought this individual yesterday to commit
another horrific
oh
act on and we're seeing the problems in
law enforcement the problems with the mental health
system
oh
the problems with the available building of high
powered weapons like the a r fifteen and
m yeah
you know ere is no one solution
yeah
and i think that's the biggest the most
frustrating part for me
oh
they got people on one side and they
just want to say it's the gardens
oh
and move move on and then you have
people to say it has nothing to do
with the
oh
guns well as i do with a whole
spectrum
oh
of things and if we don't approach that
the problem from wholistics
oh
standpoint and we try to address them all
m
it's just like when you set
m
up security for for
yeah
a major event you you have concentric rings
oh
of security overlap in brings
yeah
just for that
yeah
that purpose because there's no one solution to
any complicated problem
yeah
but we'd better get on it because
yeah
we saw some significant problems in the response
oh
to you vally
oh
and there's also the issue
oh
of buffalo and uvalde could have been
oh
prevent it if
oh
we didn't simply require you
oh
to be twenty one years old to buy
semi automatic rifle um and there were failures
oh
in terms of no one picked
yeah
up on social media they were cries for
help
oh
they were you know subconscious or conscious cries
for it
yeah
someone please intervene and then the fact that
oh
the doer from buffalo is taken to a
mental health facility for threatening
oh
committing as shooting and
oh
simply released
oh
you know
oh
we need to fix things
yeah
in the criminal justice system there's no two
ways about it but we also have to
start holding other
yeah
people a canal
yeah
you know you know why does he released
so quickly
yeah
after making such
yeah
a dangerous threat why was it down played
why was he not entered into the the
red flag system wasn't
oh
wasn't the right red flag well adhered to
hm
and he was flagged from
m
purchasing it and
oh
m
oh
you know again there's all these trip buyers
yeah
that were missed
yeah
and every one of these incidents that i've
studied
oh
here were multiple opportunities
yeah
for someone
oh
to ave said hey something is wrong here
yeah
you guys need to look at this
yeah
and you got to make sure that when
when those qualis commend law enforcement
oh
that you know as i used to say
that's it all hands on deck no one
goes home
oh
until we have hands on this person than
we can say for sure that they're not
a threat
oh
we have control the firearms
yeah you talked about numbers at the beginning
the associated press just moved the story about
an hour ago twelve mass shooting since january
seventy six people did including tulsa oklahoma last
night where a man walked into a medical
center on a hospital on hospital grounds with
a rifle and with a gun according to
the police he used both four people were
shot and killed and then he took his
own life we have the horrific situation in
uvalde the funerals have started this week
at
for both the nineteen children that have been
killed and the two teachers that were killed
um and the buffalo situation obviously
i
a month ago with ten did um joe
let's take a quick look at salvador
there s
rolando
no here
ramo sees
on
the gunman and
it
in the texas incident who according to police
bought
that's a
and a r fifteen the day after his
birthday
to
then bought another
a
a high powered long gun also had a
hand gun
okay
with him as well fourteen hundred rounds i
think they said it was five five six
amo he bought
a
um m saw something on t v the
other night to purchase that required thousands of
dollars i think the one gun they said
he paid over twenty two hundred dollars for
he's eighteen years old he works at a
drive up window at a fast food please
you start there to figure out how did
this happen and why
never
did it happen
i absolutely i think that's the question on
everybody's mind but we also know the credit
quite company's target young people
hm
you know i know all of my children
m
were receiving
oh
all for sure to sign up for a
credit card at
oh
what i thought was outrageous level credit lines
it
so that that may be what happened here
m
but we certainly
m
have to find out to confirm
yeah
that he acted alone
oh
but the other thing i'm going to say
to you is
oh
and i think this should definitely be the
last
oh
time today that we say this person's name
or the name of any of these shooters
m
you know one of the things that we
have
m
to stop doing is
oh
the media and law enforcement we just have
to agree to stop mentioning their names stop
showing their pictures
oh
because one of the things that the research
does show
oh
is that uh new shooters
oh
often respond to a level of attention that
m
they see previous shooters getting
yeah
and the you know the buffalo attack
yeah
was modeled
oh
much after the aurora attack so we don't
one thing we want to make sure we
do is deny them
oh
as much attention as possible
yeah i will say that before we go
away from him according to his friends family
members and things like that this young man
had a stuttering
i
problem he had a list he was bullied
routinely coming up through school things
tell
like that it appears
a
there were some signs here
okay
that this young man needed help early
i
and didn't get it um and unfortunately why
he picked an elementary school to do this
a
at and act the way he did shoot
his own grandmother just kind of bells
i
everything and makes you wonder what's going on
in this country
yeah one of the things we have to
do is we have to teach our own
children who
yeah
we're not going to keep them off of
the internet but
yeah
when you're in tract chat rooms and someone
oh
is talking about people deserve to be raped
yeah
and one is nicknamed school shooter
yeah
and he's obviously
yeah
proud of
oh
it i mean you
yeah
know you have to teach our young people
you've got to take this serious that you've
got to understand
oh
how this can end and you've got to
reach out and make some one more
oh
a bit and also these platforms have to
be held responsible
m
they have to have some type of algorithm
in place i mean it's
yeah
possible where pick up on key words
oh
terms phrases
yeah
and report and cooperate with law enforcement
yeah
it's just not normal to
yeah
go on to a website at that age
and brag about buying a gun
yeah
threatened rape murder and kidnap
oh
and nobody responds or reference
m
to the buffalo shooter
yeah
you're you're posting your manifesto
yeah
and you're talking about
yeah
you know making races comments
yeah
and your hatred for another race and your
willingness to commit violence and and no one
calls unfortunately it's just
yeah
you know i said i it's no one
thing there were so many ways in
yeah
which that buffalo
oh
shooting could have been
oh
prevented through volley
m
but the one problem that one thing we
do it went limbering vesting money in this
problem is the availability
m
mental health treatment i've know so
yah
many different friends of mine who have family
members and they'll tell you that it's just
almost impossible to get that type of help
and
h
insurances don't often don't cover its
right
extreme expensive and there simply are not enough
impatient beds available in this country
yea sometimes doctors won't take insurance they want
to you know they want
what
to be paid directly kind of situation i
guess there's a lot of hastes involved with
that and you're right that seems to be
one of the you may mentioned at the
top this is multi faceted problem and a
lot of things have to be addressed including
the mental health part of this let's talk
about if we can situation at
for
rob elementary school according all the articles i've
seen and the news conferences i've watched they
had a twenty one point
it's quite
security plan at that
a
school including offense all locked doors single point
entry that was supposed to be in place
a whole lot of other things they had
and a active shooter training in the district
in
a few weeks before that at the high
school uh everyone in the
if we wanted
police department which i understand is made
so
up of a chief a detective
at
and two police officers i believe for eight
schools
i
four
oh
police officers obviously not enough in this situation
why
lock
good
down situations
i do
things like that when the grandmother was shot
a few miles away there was no lock
down declared to the school was not unlock
down at the time
as tight
gunman crashed his
how
car left
this one
his car fired on a funeral home jumped
the fence
nan
into the school yard and started firing
i
um let's deal with one thing right off
the back where did this story come from
break
and how could it even start that
okay
a school resource officer engaged the gunman in
gun fire and was wounded or pin down
when he wasn't even there where did that
come from that misinformation right
the
off the bat really pun this whole thing
sideways for law enforcement
i'm thinking that that got confused and that's
why you should never speak to the press
until you're a hundred percent ready
oh
and then you know you have utilized the
incident command system to
yeah
designate
yeah
your press person and
yeah
all the agencies involved
oh
have contributed to the statement
yeah
and confirmed the facts
yeah
it's never there's never a problem with saying
i don't know
m
an initial price conference
m
but i will get you that answer
yeah
and i've given you that answer many
oh
times so i'm thinking that when the first
two officers entered the school
yeah
the gunman did fire through the door door
window and they were struck with
m
shrapnel i'm thinking that that
m
but but it doesn't that doesn't excuse it
yeah
you know you can't afford to make mistakes
like
oh
that in a situation
m
i think as well
yeah
they were probably realizing
oh
the depth of passion of the parents who
were not happy with the
yeah
in getting into that class room
yeah when you saw that on video the
parents who are outside yelling go in go
in go in um speaking of going in
the initial report comes out that a teacher
had propped
sure
open the door to go out to the
park and like to get her phone
and
out of her car and then returned in
the initial report was that she left the
door propped open apparently based on video that
that's
now recovered that is not true she did
close the door but the door did not
lock and unfortunately that's a key of the
school
so
to have
i
all the perimeter doors locked
the worst
and one point of entry am i right
ran
they call it a man trap sometimes when
you have to come in through the first
door you stand in like a estabule with
a second
so
door
i
the back door has to close someone inside
just
as to ask you to identify yourself we
had it at fox when i worked at
fox and bullet proof glass here as well
wal
and the person stands in there until a
security person clears them to come in had
that happened here obviously that wouldn't have this
would have all been prevented but it did
not
to and that's a hundred percent true and
i'm a old retarded hardening our schools but
remember were a hundred thousand some number like
that in the united states
yeah
many of them like in philadelphia these buildings
are six seven years old
oh
so the amount of time
kay
and money it's going to take but remember
oh
and this is why it's so important to
attack it from multiple levels
oh
if you have an individual that is determined
ah
he's going to shoot up at school when
the students in that school
oh
if he or she realized that they can't
go to get into the school i mean
what are we going to no longer have
recess there's
h
always gonna be a rival there's always
m
going to be departure there's always going to
be every window in the shoe gonna be
both proof
oh
so i'm a hundred percent in agreement that
we need to do that
oh
but again
oh
our time and energy has to really be
spent into prevention
yeah
into into into the hat the research done
so we can
m
begin to create profiles begin to identify those
types
yeah
of behaviors
ah
of what causes a person to transition
oh
from a normal young healthy person into someone
not angry
oh
that they would something so horrific and cows
as that
yeah
in regard to the training you know i
saw that training myself and the first thing
i want to know is who gave the
training re's unfortunately a lot of
oh
consultants that are out there
yeah
given training that have no real life experience
that
yeah
they're not prepared to do something like that
they got an online certificate i don't know
that's what happened in this case the second
thing i want to know is if the
school police were doing that train
oh
the city police there when the county charges
the
oh
partner there if they're training alone i mean
that would be ridiculous because
yeah
what's confusing here is that
oh
it just doesn't appear
oh
that these agencies were used to working
oh
together and
yeah
i want to know whether you evolve these
cities sat team was
oh
i mean the
yeah
very proud of their sad team two thousand
and eighteen they got level four vest
yes
and all of that equipment i want to
know what equipment was in the cars of
the school police
yeah
and the city police
yeah
what kind of active shooter kids do they
have
oh
at something all the partners need to be
looking at right now
m
and making sure
m
that you know along with the plate characters
and the helmets and the long guns that
you add
oh
breaching tools
yeah
um and can sit
oh
now the issue with with the body
yeah
bunker is
yeah
a little bit complicated i mean there too
when i'm all for them but you know
they require a lot of training
m
they're extremely heavy you need
m
to be in shape you need to train
with them
yeah
once you you're carrying the body bunker and
have to use a hand gun
oh
and you know officers in swat train on
oh
load and reload and charge
oh
their weapon utilizing their
yeah
their sites and the side of the body
m
bunker
oh
but it also is heavy and it slows
down so
yeah
um
yeah
you know
oh
is certainly part of this
what
analysis this investigation will be the training and
the type of training
yeah
and in what it included do they have
member i'm understanding
oh
between the different agencies and
yeah
listen
oh
it's i don't understand how the chief
m
of a four man or five man police
department would be the incident
m
commander
yeah that was my next question you've been
the incident commander at many a catastrophe including
the am track train crash at the beginning
and others countless republican national convention democratic national
convention things like that
a
should the head of a foreman police department
be calling the shots excuse the pun there
yeah
but should they be directing individuals when you
have when you have deputies texas rangers the
border police showed up or the patrol showed
up at some point
do
but
i
you have nineteen police officers i believe they
said in the hallway outside
i
the class room it sounds
that
like looking for a direction and the direction
they got
do
according again to the preliminary information and everybody
has their right to tell the story including
story
the chief himself
so
why did they decide this was no longer
an
i
active shooting situation and it was a hostage
situation
most
when that clearly wasn't the case young children
are calling from the classroom to nine
yeah
one one o suming and again based on
preliminary info was
the
that in fo sent to the nineteen officers
inside and the incident commander that kids are
calling from inside the classroom saying he's still
in here where
a
still in hell were still alive i mean
that tells
so what
me
i
you
want to
go
know
in
right off
yeah
the bat
what i want to know from the beginning
because ve seen this and other incidents including
incidents in philadelphia when that chief made that
call where was he was he in his
office because if he was in his office
he was brought it's the highest ranking officer
at the scene that makes that call on
officers are trained to mmaediately go in now
again we two officers that were hit with
shrapnel from gun fire it may be reasonable
for them to say they need moral officers
yeah
but thereafter
oh
a sergeant arrived a look from the city
or the school department with more officers that
was his or her responsibility then to reorganize
re group and come up with a quick
tactical plan
m
you've got
m
the ability to use the version ability to
use multiple points of entry
oh
you've got to five are an ms on
location because they responded to the initial auto
acted and so you've got tons on scene
that you need
hm
but but the
m
bottom line is you've got to come up
with a plan you've got to come up
with it quickly and you have to act
oh
you've got the you know trumseargers talk about
the golden hour
yeah
there's babies in there they're bleeding and their
time is running out
yeah
i got coals coming in at twelve o
three twelve ten twelve nineteen twelve twenty one
twelve thirty six
oh
and there's there's an open phone from twelve
forty seven to twelve fifty one
oh
with children begging
oh
please come and help us
m
and i can't even imagine
m oh
what they must have been feeling
oh
when they are making that plea and no
one's coming
yeah
they're smearing himself with blood they're laying on
top of their dead classmates i mean i
just can't even
oh
begin to imagine being that
yah
age and dealing
yeah
with this so now all those questions have
oh
to be answered and i think
oh yeah
i suspect
yeah
that that chief was sworn in yesterday as
a member of city council
hm
and he was an influential person
oh
in the community and maybe
yeah
other police leaders who
oh
were heads in because what should have happened
in that
yeah
in a situation like this
oh
of the incident command system
oh
it's the most knowledgeable and capable person
oh
that takes charge
oh
and when he made that statement that this
is a host situation and someone
m
should have immediately told
m
you know
m
took it over
oh
i said i'm a statituting supremacy here
oh
and this god be the city or the
county
oh
where was the city sat team
yeah
where was the shares department sat team
yeah
i stole a picture of a state police
officer he's wearing helmet and and n v
ges like vision goggles
oh
and carrying
yeah
a flash bank
oh
great i mean but
oh
it was obvious that there wasn't sufficient command
post in place
oh
where you had representatives of each agency there
telling the chief this is what i have
on seeing i'm told there there were marshes
one scene
yeah
if marshals on scene they had a body
bunker i mean this this boar actin
oh
they get on location
oh
at twelve fifteen i mean they're
yeah
coming a great distance
yeah
there right to go and try to understand
and that's
some
forty
risk
five minutes
move
that's forty five minutes after this jumps off
at eleven thirty eleven twenty eight
right it's almost another
okay
forty five minutes before they're allowed to finally
go in so let's remember something about our
federal partners at this at this point initially
i mean you really don't have federal jurisdiction
your partners show up to help you they're
there to provide you with whatever you need
and that's what they were there to do
m
they were ready to go
m
but you know they're not and two overrule
someone they're there to tell you he that
this is the capabilities we have and we're
ready to go and get it done for
you
m
and they should have been allowed to
m
do
yeah
it but where where
oh
the city
oh
county and state resources
oh
and why were they not put into play
yeah and
kay
you kind of wonder like you said why
was that the head of the county sheriffs
i
the deputies that with texas rangers on site
and let's talk about them for a minute
jo they sound
to
like there to
so
do the investigation here they are doing the
investigation here they are trying to talk to
all the witnesses this is going to be
a
tis
lengthy
a
you know fact driven
cut three
kind of investigation i know people are going
to get impatient about wanting
ship
to know what happened here but based on
the stumbling that took place at
to
the beginning
place
on facts that just weren't true coming out
and then had to be countered and then
had to be discussed again you wanted complete
thorough investigation here from the
as
second to started do you not
you throw an i think at this point
i think it's even hard for d p
s to do that that they lost a
lot of credibility when there the believers and
lieutenant made a statement that the officers didn't
go in because they might have got shot
um you know that that that was really
another example of you know only one
m
person should be talking to the media
m
when you have an incident like this it's
one
m
person
oh
but every agency is p o
yeah
has a chance to contribute to and review
oh
the statement before it's made
oh
and it clearly was not being done here
um and i think that
m oh
it's good that dog is going come in
and do the
yeah
review
oh
yes it's going to take a while i
mean they have
oh
you know they have to listen to all
the radio transmissions
oh
you know that's another
yeah
that's another issue that apparently
yeah
was not part of their planning process
hm
with ineroperability issue that it was stated
m
that everyone
ye
on different radio frequencies on um
m
and then there was a report that
oh
the chief in charge wasn't even listening to
a radio
m
now lo
m
that may be fine his style might be
i want to
oh
i want to focus on the big picture
items i want to maintain
yeah
the ten thousand foot view but you better
have
oh
designated someone to stand next to you and
relate those radio transmissions
oh
and when you are having a child call
and say there's eight or nine children alive
in this class room
oh
it's go time
oh
it's just that simple it's go time so
ah
um
oh
you know
yeah
i just my heart bleeds for these parents
hm
to know that you know
m oh
i can't even begin to imagine what like
what it's like to lose your child number
oh
one but if you have to live with
the reality that it's possible they could have
lived
oh
if they had gotten medical attention faster
oh
if you know and that's why you know
in philadelphia i entered tactile emergency casualty care
the part of our active shooter response
oh
um an incredible number of lives
oh
are saved every year about the philadelphia police
department in normal every day responses
a simple turned
like
you you put turned kids in advocated for
that in the police department did that that
kind save somebody's life shot in the leg
you get shot in the leg you don't
think it's going to kill you it can
so you need a turnicketkit for everybody
every time we apply to turnigat m s
would go to that house go an speak
to the fire department for use and the
doctor would tell us what was it appropriate
to apply to tornik and was it appropriately
applied to for positive reason so we would
get that feed back back to the officer
hm
wasn't tight enough you know if it doesn't
hurt it ain't tight enough we had a
gentleman full of his roof doing work on
his house and he got a com fracture
of his thigh bone and penetrating fracture and
officers use turnicet so turnicets gunshot gets
oh
the chest seals you know the basics
oh
airways
yeah
so that needs to be happening immediately and
you know we have to get our and
that's why i also started the rams program
oh
where we began to train with our five
department we trained our fight art medics and
then trained with them you know when when
we did we moved through training scent areas
at the airport
yeah
so that all the other enforcement agencies at
the airport were train with us or they
understood we stacked our formations or verbal orders
yeah
how we would move
yeah
we went to the comcast building we invited
set to be a part of it when
we worked with security from inside the building
hm
we did things that independent
m
small to work
yeah
with our federal partners
yeah
ou've got to train together you got to
train frequent
oh
frequently you know the infamous lieutenant fitz patrick
yeah
i mean he put together one and
yeah
two i mean really revolutionary stuff
oh
at the time where you know we were
training
oh
on an actual training car along with the
set police
yeah
and the fire department
oh
and sam phillips from the office of mercer
manage men
hm
who made all that possible
m
by finding us the money
yeah
but the lessons learned from that is just
yeah
you know
okay before we get away from what happened
given that this is a split second decision
making situation it's obviously
what
chaotic
does
at the school when they arrive but nineteen
right
officers went into the school walk people through
in an active shooter situation
it's been
in a simple way so it's direct
ah
what what's the goal going in the
what
school at that point when you have an
active shooter
but
you are hearing gun fire you know people
have been
no
shot
tom
what are you doing when you enter the
doors what's the goal and how do you
get to it m
you pick you pick the most capable person
that you have there at the moment it
might be an officer with military experience and
you designate name is the team leader you
don't wait for a supervisor unless one's there
and there is a supervisor there i
oh
mean you know you've got a guide as
a former ranger or something
ah
you know he be the team leader and
you're going to move in it might be
by yourself it might be with one partner
it might be with three it might be
with fort either way you ride in you
go um and you move to the sound
of gun shots there's no high text there's
no time for high technology here you move
to the sun of gun shots you walk
over the injured tar thing to say i
know but you cannot change the fact that
they've been shot at one thing you can
do is moved to the sound of gun
fire neutralize the threat and keep someone else
from being shot and then you immediately transition
into into your rescue mode and you go
back and you start as you said
m
doing hamerage control
m
plying applying turn kits gunshot kids and pressure
bandages chest seals airways and roll and and
you start bringing the medics in at that
point
yeah
when what's called a warm
ah
you haven't had a chance to completely search
the building yet there could be other
oh
persons inside that that represent a danger
sure
but the guys got have stopped so in
philadelphia the officers are trained to protect the
medics while
oh
they do the basics and evacuate the person
to a tree ate area where they can
do a
oh
advanced life support at that time
oh
and then you know you amasyour resources and
you do a secondary
m
and tertiary search of the property to make
sure of their are no other victims
yeah
in fact in tulsa they actually found an
additional victim that was hiding in a closet
and that's why that is so important
h
to make sure because it takes a long
time to account for everyone
yeah
when you have an ice and like there
you have people that are just leaving the
scene walking away a track
yeah
was a prime example that was the most
difficult task
yeah
was simply accounting for some people just walked
got in a cabin
yeah
and went back to new york city or
were the hospital
m
in their own so
m
m but that's
m
why it requires a strict adherence to the
incident command system
yeah
the bisco as a perfect example in philadelphia
oh
m absolutely
oh
i lived near by which was fortunate
oh
for me but still barber chewing when when
i get the call
yeah
and i'm in my car immediately and on
the way but still
yeah
the important thing that day was officers for
the seventh the eighth traffic on the
yah
rosevelte boulevard even some officers from ben sale
yeah
responded and
m
in the bisco they want
ah
they changed the perpetrator into a
yeah
building
m
that was actually on the factory floor
h
and at that time
m
it did become barricaded person and they correctly
oh
handled it so and then when we relieve
them one post
oh
i got a phone call telling me that
there was a room inside this
yeah
this this structure
yeah
in which we had more victims immediate lo
i
m
gave i gave my operators the order to
go
yeah
on take the person out
yeah
she elected
yeah
to show her hands and surrender and of
course we took that and then we we
rescued the people that we're inside
m
so things can
m
can change
oh
gum
yeah
but you know and
yeah
and you know prime example
yeah
there was criticism
yeah
will be officers from buffalo
h
that they didn't shoot
m
the individual
oh
when they should be commended
m
they were they responded
m
and
oh
in a couple of minutes at best
oh
they had
yeah
soft
oh
body armor and hand guns and they could
find a guy with hard body armor
oh
and uh
yeah
and long guns
yeah
and you know their goal was to make
sure he did not go back inside
yeah
that super marget
yeah
gas more potential victims in there
m
you don't have control
m
over the way these things end and the
bisco again is a prime example
yeah
you know
and i got to say this there's been
a lot of criticism of law enforcement and
uvalde there was some very brave officers who
went to class rooms around that school broke
out windows and got children out of that
building through those broken windows and quickly escorted
them off the property i mean i saw
some video yesterday because more and more video
is coming out as this goes on of
officers at
sir
windows
i
where vulnerable getting kids out as quickly as
they
so
can and moving them in the direction away
from the school as
it
quickly as possible
so what is
so there was a lot of kind of
heroic police officers doing their job there getting
as many people out of that building
i
into safety that they could there's been a
lot of criticism of them but
that's
at the same point
it
that's a very important thing to get as
many people out of the building as you
can safely
and that's why my and i don't even
want to say it's criticism but my hard
questions have been for the people in charge
my heart bleeds for
oh
the officers you know right now i'm sure
all the officers
oh
that responded to that are heart broke in
and they're really
yeah
questioning everything but when an incident like that
don't fall
oh
you're trained to follow orders
oh
and the officers followed the orders they were
given so the
m
question is why were those orders given
yeah
who gave them and why were they not
superseded by other people
yeah
authority
yeah
and
okay
this is that this city will
oh
never be the same a small
no
community
no
to thing
no um let's travel to washington d c
for a minute if we can hear there's
a lot of talks going on i think
there's a group of about six u s
senators now that are from both sides by
partisan group talking about different things that can
be done since the beginning of the
his
week there's talk about an a r fifteen
band let's talk about a salt weapon
mark
bands the president for some reason went off
about nine millimeter hand guns the other day
um sounding like he wanted to band them
things like that hardening of schools
thank us for
security around
a
that's a lot of money we have money
with tossing around billions of dollars here left
and right in this country right now
it
a lot of parents sitting
like
at home saying
to
toss
sip
something that way and let's do that but
as you spoke about this right
i
at the very beginning this is a multi
faceted thing and that one thing could stop
that i
a
believe i saw the other night that the
eighteen year old have been able buy a
long rifle a long gun in texas for
the past century um
i have
m and that was nothing new but would
it have even stopped him there was no
criminal record on this individual there was no
a
you know mental health issues that popped up
that would have prevented him from getting the
guns and he got the guns and he
don't
got a
think
lot of ammunition to me and this is
just me but i'm an east coast guy
don't live in texas
to
if a young man shows up a day
after his birthday buying two weapons like that
and a ton of amo like that something
is going off
that's
in my head in the times
a
we're in especially with buffalo having just happened
i'm saying what when
we
the guy walks
i
away or before he walks away
at
to my boss
what
this kid's buying a lot
he
of em here and he's buying long
i
guns and he literally just had his eighteenth
birthday those are simple
so i think
questions see something
so
say something type things isn't it
i mean i think so but the problem
is you know it's kind of a different
different environment in texas i don't know
yeah
i would think that to be unusual like
you know kit connect that person even refused
to sale if the person
yeah
passes the background jack i don't know that's
just it and if that person did there's
something a law that would protect him from
reliability if someone wants to come back later
and then you know and sue or
m
file
m
a claim that he failed to do that
the same thing goes with mental health we
got to make sure that if a mental
health practitioner put someone in the system to
band them from purchasing a firearm that they
had the immunity they need to feel confident
in doing that or they hold someone for
patient treat
m
at that they're protected from from liability that
they have a degree of immunity so
m
that they're not afraid to do their job
m
you know
m oh
we talked about eighteen year old
m
and the need for diversion
oh
when they commit crimes
oh
and one of the explanations
oh
given is
oh
that eighteen or old especially males their brains
don't
oh
you know fully develop and mature until they're
older than twenty one
ye
sometimes as long as twenty five so
yeah
i don't understand why
yeah
neither either one of these shooters could not
buy a hand gun they're allowed to buy
two
m
two three or five five six
m
and as you said hundreds of rounds of
ammunition there's nothing preventing them from
yeah
buying body armor
oh
um
yah
you know so
oh
getting to your
yeah
original question is you know the president's comments
disturbed me greatly
oh
because that's exactly what
yeah
the gun lobby wants him to say
ye
you can't stop a law abiding citizen
oh
from from purchasing a firearm
oh
but i think that's unreasonable
oh
but i don't think it's unreasonable
yeah
to require you to be twenty
yeah
one and pass a background check
oh
and
oh
the private sale work
m
were private transfer exception
h
and for for everyone
m
to go through a background check before buying
buying a weapon
yeah
i went through back and out checks before
i bought my long gun and my hand
guns i didn't find it a problem
oh
it was quick i presented the proper identification
filled out the required forms we also have
to give a t f back their power
there's no
m
reason why a t f should not be
able to
they
stop
should give
into
them some money
pat
to do their job first because a couple
of months ago jeff cole reported in philadelphia
that the t f office here has a
million dollar budget man that's true that's ridiculous
let's talk about background checks you i'm sure
you saw steve cur
i
he's the coach of the golden state warriors
the day of the shooting talking about background
checks in a very emotional way angry actually
stood up and kind of walked off the
set
tis
after he spoke at a pre game press
conference
this conforenc
there has been talking about a red flag
legislation things like that which would if something
popped up in the mental health field or
whatever you could go and remove guns from
individuals who
the
may potentially pose
the
a danger
goal
that's a whole yeah gray area that that
have to be defined that kind of thing
but in domestic violence situations
i was
if
to
police officers respond to a domestic violence situation
they often
as
take any kind of weapons out of
we
the house that might be in there after
they've been called there for a domestic final
situation
that's part
so do you think those kind of things
will help should we do them
stupid i think we should and they will
help are they alone the solution
yeah
absolutely not in those states that have instituted
red red flag laws the preliminary resirt search
indicates that they have
oh
read duced domestic incidents of homicide and an
aggregated assault and suicide because let's remember gun
tats united states the biggest classification of gun
tests in the united states are suicide
yes
you know and again i'm a gun owner
i'm not anti gun but you have to
understand that the responsibility that you are taking
one when you introduce a gun
yeah
do a household the research is clear the
chance for domestic violence the chance for suicide
goes up exponentially and one of things that
frustrates me a gun owner is gun owners
legal gun orders so it's just there responsible
m
we just
m
had a four year olds
oh
or for old shoot himself in the car
he was left in a car with a
loaded gun while while the father was getting
a hair cut i mean that's not an
isolated incident i mean when you look at
how many of those stories happen here in
philadelphia now extrapolate across the entire country
m
every major
m
city in america right now and not just
major cities a smaller city to are seeing
a rise in stolen guns especially
oh
out of vehicles
yeah
the number of guns being produced and imported
oh
into america
yeah
in the last two years as going through
roof
yeah
i think last year we imported six point
yeah
eight million weapons into the united states that
number was seven hundred thousand back in nineteen
eighty six
yeah
gun sales they jumped from one million guns
oh
a year to two million
yeah
gun sales so i
m
mean
oh
it's just and i'm not saying
yeah
that anyone should not be able any lie
biding citizen should not be able to buy
a gun that's
m
why we need to be reasonable
oh
so
oh
i don't like the president talking
oh
talking about nine millimeters
yeah
but i like the idea that a lot
of gun owners and a lot of people
that attended the n r a convention in
euston
oh
you know at hey that's worth taking to
look at raising
oh
the age to twenty
yeah
one m n and other reasonable measures like
that that will
m
not inhibit
yeah
if you start talking about you start taking
people's guns away from
yeah
them this is going to shut down immediately
that's not going to happen
yeah
unless you have to pause
yeah
and even with red flag laws if your
guns are taken you get to do process
here and within a very short
yeah
period of time
oh
where law enforcement and mental
ah
health have to justify what they've done
oh
but you know
yeah
and the domestic violence laws in pennsylvania they
require law enforcement to do that
oh
but it's not happening in the city
yeah
because right now there's not resources
yeah
to do it
yeah
and there's questions about whose responsibility it is
to do
yeah
it and
yeah
and where and one of the problems with
the law is there was an owners put
on law enforcement that a okay if there's
m
any damage whatsoever through those firearms
oh
i think we have to pay treble damages
yeah
so you know now it's a matter of
where you're going to store them and how
you gonna store
okay let me let's finish up with two
quick questions we saw a lot of the
parents from the sandy hook shooting over ten
years ago public again in the last week
talking about you can't let another one of
these go by without doing anything congress can't
run to their usual four corners and hide
from doing something along the lines of the
multiple things we've spoken about
so
here today
today
you can't just sit back in
i
six months from now we've done nothing the
time for that is present and needs to
happen right away would you agree with that
and do you think it's going to happen
i i tend to think it will but
again that's why you know implored people stop
with everyone's guns away and people on the
other side that that say we're not giving
into anything because if we do it's the
slippery slope i mean they're talking points and
that's nonsense we need to come into the
middle and really be willing just take a
look at everything objectively and really say to
yourself if you raise the age in which
you can buy and are fifteen to twenty
one how is that really taking any of
my rights a you know even in the
military people talk about the military were
oh
we give those guns to young people on
the
oh
military in the military as soon as you've
done training they collect that weapon and they
count every bullet god help you if you're
short of both
yeah
you got problems
yeah
so that's really not the case and again
i mean you know let's not start talking
about nine millimeters other than say when you
buy
oh
a gun you should go through
oh
a background check it takes seconds
yeah
with that
oh
now on the
oh
other side we have to make sure that
there is money
oh
and resources to make sure
yeah
that these background checks can be done
yeah
quickly and efficiently because
and properly
we forced to admit that was that's what
i experienced but other gun owners have not
experienced that and that you know raised a
significant argument you look at other people is
it permits in the city in the county
for seeing county in philadelphia are up i
think seven hundred percent
hm
from just a couple of years ago and
that's really disturbing that tells you that
seventy
people do
thousand
not have
permits
a
i think was the number i heard
yeah and i mean if you go through
the process you probably have to do more
paper work when you ran and i mean
what went when you adopt an animal from
the s p c a or something like
that
m
so you know that's not good i don't
want to deny any one to permit any
lawful citizen permit that they have a right
to that permont i agree but i just
want to make sure that i think we
could go back to the old system where
we get prints we take photos we do
extensive around checks and we look at all
arrests not just convictions all a rest
m
and we do a little bit more but
the resources the resources to do that did
not exist
m
and that's why we had to go to
another system to expedite because the department
m
was sued and really
m
didn't have a leg to stand on so
you know again i hope all of these
issues are looked at so lawful gun owners
m
come
oh
to realize that we are not coming after
your firearms we
yes
may ask you to do a couple of
extra steps so that we can get this
problem under control on the othe think david
these laws have to be passed at the
federal level
yes
jersey has some of the most strict gun
laws in the country kisota's california the states
illinois but the states the board of them
have some of the most liberal
yeah
laws in the country so you're canceling each
other
m
out that's why we have to have standardized
m oh
low it's passed in regard to the guns
oh
and the purchasing of
oh
guns so that
oh
if it's you
oh
have to be twenty one and in one
state you just can't go to another state
when you're eighteen and buy a gun
m
so i really prayed that there's a there's
an objective reasonable
m ah
civil conversation around these things and everybody realizes
that we need to make progress everyone is
not getting all of what they want
oh
better accept that going in just focus on
making sure that everybody gets something
yeah
and we get the process started
oh
we can always build on that because these
s are not going to end just yesterday
there was an attack
m
that was thwarted in l a where an
individual
oh
was recruiting in other individuals do an attack
on high school and he had he had
long guns
yeah
was ready to go
yeah
that was a tragedy averted and a great
job there was a ten year old in
florida
ah
after uvalde who was arrested
ye
threatening to shoot up at school one line
yeah
so you know this problem is with us
and
m
you need to put
yeah
we need to stop being stubborn
okay hey listen
i
propped in oklahoma last night the police response
a
was within three minutes officers were entering that
medical center to go towards the gunman and
the chief on scene last night who held
the news conference made a big point of
saying
i
we were there within three minutes and we
went into action
i
immediately i would assume you want to see
a
and we'll wrap this up with this a
thorough moment by moment by moment
a cone
accounting of what happened in yuvaldi
you want to
by the texas rangers the justice department
i was
is
just
now saying they're investigating as well
in no
this has to be thorough and these paint
and the families deserve answers as to what
happened here and
you're
because i'm sure a lot of them believe
their children could have been saved if
my
more had been done quickly
they cuts to tulsa um from the from
the response
oh
to the press conference
oh
i don't see situation like
yeah
that could be handled better and you know
what every one in la force and you
know we obviously wish telson never happening
m
and our hearts break for the families of
those laws but
m
at least it reminded people that this is
the way that law enforcement does
m
reach to these things this is the way
that they're trained
oh
to respond to these things
oh
that uvolity is not the norm
oh
and but it does raise the issue
yeah
of and we're training
oh
our police officers
yeah
how to respond to these things the one
thing
oh
that we often do not do is we
do not run classes for the individual s
that should be in charge out there and
i think that's something that will come out
of euvolvy
m
to make sure the decision
oh
makers participate in
i
the training with officers
oh
but they have a separate training an incident
command
yeah
and how to manage these incidents and know
the definition
oh
between an active shooter and a higstatnbarricade situation
okay joe
cool
listen thank you for once again letting us
tap into your expertise your skills and your
experience thirty plus years in the police department
at a very high level um always appreciate
your straightforward answers and your straightforward thoughts about
what
yeah
could should and has to be done in
the future kind of thing and i appreciate
you coming on the show with short notice
again here but this was the topic this
just kind of needs to be talked to
especially since
making
we just
sense
had another incident in tulsa last
talk
night thanks again for coming on
day
all right that's it for this week
a
on philly prime folks thanks for tuning in
we appreciate that we'll be back next week
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